"The unsettled debate nitrous "
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Sorry Half Fast after reading that again I see where you get the "WTF" from.
Instead of saying it's not reffered to as forced induction, I should have said not commonly reffered to as forced induction.
On the whole, most people don't see it as forced induction simply because it isn't in a lot of cases. Many setups never see liquid N20 entering the combustion chamber. Instead it phase changes into a gaseous state well before it gets there due to long intake runner lengths and other factors. Direct port setups obviously help alleviate that problem and is another reason why they make more power.
Another way to look at this is this... You could conceivably set up a forced induction system to techinically not be forced induction. You could cause the waste gate to open at 0 psi of pressure. You would still be pumping air into the engine, but you would not be generating positive manifold pressure. I would not classify this setup as forced induction either.... It's also not a common way to do things.
So the entire point is... the common deciding factor between forced and naturually aspirated is the generation of positive manfiold pressure above atmospheric. The uncommon deciding factor between forced and naturually aspirated would be the generation of additional combustion chamber pressure above wich would normally be generated before the ignition event.
Now maybe some one can provide some evidence to the contrary here but this is my understanding of how all this works.
Instead of saying it's not reffered to as forced induction, I should have said not commonly reffered to as forced induction.
On the whole, most people don't see it as forced induction simply because it isn't in a lot of cases. Many setups never see liquid N20 entering the combustion chamber. Instead it phase changes into a gaseous state well before it gets there due to long intake runner lengths and other factors. Direct port setups obviously help alleviate that problem and is another reason why they make more power.
Another way to look at this is this... You could conceivably set up a forced induction system to techinically not be forced induction. You could cause the waste gate to open at 0 psi of pressure. You would still be pumping air into the engine, but you would not be generating positive manifold pressure. I would not classify this setup as forced induction either.... It's also not a common way to do things.
So the entire point is... the common deciding factor between forced and naturually aspirated is the generation of positive manfiold pressure above atmospheric. The uncommon deciding factor between forced and naturually aspirated would be the generation of additional combustion chamber pressure above wich would normally be generated before the ignition event.
Now maybe some one can provide some evidence to the contrary here but this is my understanding of how all this works.
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Originally posted by 1BFC
... I think my original explanation of why Nitrous Injection (key word there..."injection") is not Forced Induction ...
... I think my original explanation of why Nitrous Injection (key word there..."injection") is not Forced Induction ...
One entry found for inject.
Main Entry: in·ject
Pronunciation: in-'jekt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin injectus, past participle of inicere, from in- + jacere to throw -- more at JET
Date: 1601
1 a : to introduce into something forcefully <inject fuel into an engine> b : to force a fluid into (as for medical purposes)
2 : to introduce as an element or factor in or into some situation or subject
Force is used alot there... which would be rather misleading.
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Cronic,
The definition I posted for injection didn't include that sub definition you have there.
You have a point with that and I don't have anything I can add other than I agree it is in fact, quite misleading.
I think if you think about the context of how you are injecting the nitrous it doesn't quite fit that alternate definition. However, it's quite easy to read it many different ways.
The definition I posted for injection didn't include that sub definition you have there.
You have a point with that and I don't have anything I can add other than I agree it is in fact, quite misleading.
I think if you think about the context of how you are injecting the nitrous it doesn't quite fit that alternate definition. However, it's quite easy to read it many different ways.
Flippin sweet
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Well, I'm not saying what I think it is but all I know is that ZEX, and many other performance manufacts. say that it is a form of forced induction. ZEX even says it right on the package for their cold spark plugs.
So, no offense but I think I'll go by what some major manufacturers say than just some guys on a forum arguing over their opinion of a definition!
So, no offense but I think I'll go by what some major manufacturers say than just some guys on a forum arguing over their opinion of a definition!
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Hey VR,
I don't think we are arguing here... I feel it's a debate at this point, which is always good as both sides learn usually.
If you read the posts carefully you will see that we agree to a point that N20 can be very loosely defined as forced induction under specific situations. It's just not commonly referred to as forced induction in most situations.
You are entitled to believe whoever you wish that's perfectly fine. You don't know me from adam (I don't know how you may/may not know the others) and would only suggest you listen to what I (or anyone else) has to say about anything and then research for yourself some more. Only then will you be able to decide for yourself what's right and what isn't.
Shall we say this horse is dead then?
I don't think we are arguing here... I feel it's a debate at this point, which is always good as both sides learn usually.
If you read the posts carefully you will see that we agree to a point that N20 can be very loosely defined as forced induction under specific situations. It's just not commonly referred to as forced induction in most situations.
You are entitled to believe whoever you wish that's perfectly fine. You don't know me from adam (I don't know how you may/may not know the others) and would only suggest you listen to what I (or anyone else) has to say about anything and then research for yourself some more. Only then will you be able to decide for yourself what's right and what isn't.
Shall we say this horse is dead then?
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Originally posted by HybridSS
Take a close look at my car and my nozzles. I spray 300 shot into the intake...but its NOT in the direction of intake flow...its at a 90 degree angle to flow. And again the nozzles are about two inches from the actual intake slot. If there was any positive pressure it would spill out the intake inlet. So this shoots his arguement down even further.
Take a close look at my car and my nozzles. I spray 300 shot into the intake...but its NOT in the direction of intake flow...its at a 90 degree angle to flow. And again the nozzles are about two inches from the actual intake slot. If there was any positive pressure it would spill out the intake inlet. So this shoots his arguement down even further.
Unless you think there is some validity to that tornado scam I don't know why you would deliberately aim your nozzle the wrong way. Hell, if you put it in backwards it isn't going to keep the engine from running but you will be reducing the VE of the motor. I sure hope you arn't doing this deliberately since its about as wise as rigging your throttle so it doesn't open all the way.
For all the disbelievers I will repeat my argument that only needs two words, JET PUMP.
The jet pump effect is real no matter how much some people who are dead wrong try to deny it.
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Originally posted by Half Fast
N2O and FI both increase horsepower by raising cylinder pressures.
FI does this by mechanically boosting the air flow into the engine. In other words positive manifold pressure. The intake charge is ultimately measured in atmospheres of pressure. The appropriate amount of fuel is added and then burned in the cylinder.
How does this increase power? Everyone should be aware of the effect that altitude ,and more importantly the DA, affect the internal combustion engine. High altitude has air that is less dense with less O2 to support the combustion process, less fuel is added and less power is produced. Sea level in combination with cool dry air and high barometric pressure can provide an effective Density Altitude below sea level allowing more fuel to be added and more power to be created.
FI uses this same principle. Boosted manifold pressure provides a denser charge of air to allow more fuel to be burned and more power.
The atmosphere is composed primarily of Nitrogen (78%) and Oxygen (21%). Nitrogen is primarily inert in the combustion process but since it contibutes 78% of the intake chage adds chamber pressure when compressed. The 21% portion that is Oxygen is ideally used with the fuel in the combustion process.
Nitrous Oxide (N2O) does not add pressure to the intake charge. Yes it is stored in a pressurized container as a liquid. When introduced to the incoming air the pressure is equalized and the N2O boils off to it's gaseous state. This has the benefit of absorbing heat energy from the intake charge and providing a cooling and drying effect. The air in the intake charge along with the N2O which is now a gas at atmospheric pressure is then drawn into the cylinder with added fuel, not forced in. The beauty all occurs in the cylinder with the valves closed. On the compression stroke the N2O molecule is cracked under heat and pressure into 2 components. An inert N2 of two Nitrogen atoms and the O of a single oxygen atom which is searching desperately for something to bind with.
We have now achieved higher chamber pressures with additional Nitrogen added to the mixture and added unstable single atoms of Oxygen to bond with additional fuel. The effect is the same inside the cylinder as with FI resulting in more power being produced.
Mechanical boost Vs. Chemical boost, it's all good.
N2O and FI both increase horsepower by raising cylinder pressures.
FI does this by mechanically boosting the air flow into the engine. In other words positive manifold pressure. The intake charge is ultimately measured in atmospheres of pressure. The appropriate amount of fuel is added and then burned in the cylinder.
How does this increase power? Everyone should be aware of the effect that altitude ,and more importantly the DA, affect the internal combustion engine. High altitude has air that is less dense with less O2 to support the combustion process, less fuel is added and less power is produced. Sea level in combination with cool dry air and high barometric pressure can provide an effective Density Altitude below sea level allowing more fuel to be added and more power to be created.
FI uses this same principle. Boosted manifold pressure provides a denser charge of air to allow more fuel to be burned and more power.
The atmosphere is composed primarily of Nitrogen (78%) and Oxygen (21%). Nitrogen is primarily inert in the combustion process but since it contibutes 78% of the intake chage adds chamber pressure when compressed. The 21% portion that is Oxygen is ideally used with the fuel in the combustion process.
Nitrous Oxide (N2O) does not add pressure to the intake charge. Yes it is stored in a pressurized container as a liquid. When introduced to the incoming air the pressure is equalized and the N2O boils off to it's gaseous state. This has the benefit of absorbing heat energy from the intake charge and providing a cooling and drying effect. The air in the intake charge along with the N2O which is now a gas at atmospheric pressure is then drawn into the cylinder with added fuel, not forced in. The beauty all occurs in the cylinder with the valves closed. On the compression stroke the N2O molecule is cracked under heat and pressure into 2 components. An inert N2 of two Nitrogen atoms and the O of a single oxygen atom which is searching desperately for something to bind with.
We have now achieved higher chamber pressures with additional Nitrogen added to the mixture and added unstable single atoms of Oxygen to bond with additional fuel. The effect is the same inside the cylinder as with FI resulting in more power being produced.
Mechanical boost Vs. Chemical boost, it's all good.
so respectfully I was wrong, although NOS agreed its commonly termed forced induction, technically it is NOT-KW
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Originally posted by 400HP930
So you are spinning the flow down your intake instead of pushing it.
Unless you think there is some validity to that tornado scam I don't know why you would deliberately aim your nozzle the wrong way. Hell, if you put it in backwards it isn't going to keep the engine from running but you will be reducing the VE of the motor. I sure hope you arn't doing this deliberately since its about as wise as rigging your throttle so it doesn't open all the way.
So you are spinning the flow down your intake instead of pushing it.
Unless you think there is some validity to that tornado scam I don't know why you would deliberately aim your nozzle the wrong way. Hell, if you put it in backwards it isn't going to keep the engine from running but you will be reducing the VE of the motor. I sure hope you arn't doing this deliberately since its about as wise as rigging your throttle so it doesn't open all the way.
Originally posted by 400HP930
For all the disbelievers I will repeat my argument that only needs two words, JET PUMP.
The jet pump effect is real no matter how much some people who are dead wrong try to deny it.
For all the disbelievers I will repeat my argument that only needs two words, JET PUMP.
The jet pump effect is real no matter how much some people who are dead wrong try to deny it.
__________________
if it's cheap & reliable, it ain't fast, if it's fast & cheap, it ain't reliable, if it's fast & reliable, it ain't cheap
if it's cheap & reliable, it ain't fast, if it's fast & cheap, it ain't reliable, if it's fast & reliable, it ain't cheap
Last edited by HybridSS; 10-22-2003 at 09:53 PM.
I have fuzzy eyebrows
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Originally posted by Viagra_Racing
Well, I'm not saying what I think it is but all I know is that ZEX, and many other performance manufacts. say that it is a form of forced induction. ZEX even says it right on the package for their cold spark plugs.
Well, I'm not saying what I think it is but all I know is that ZEX, and many other performance manufacts. say that it is a form of forced induction. ZEX even says it right on the package for their cold spark plugs.
Really...we could dispute the finer points of how nitrous affects intake pressures but i think we all agree the engine still operates in vacum and basically equal to NA vacum.
I think the major issue is with the term "Forced Induction" and what it means. Does it mean the same thing as "boosted"?
"running boost" etc.
I believe all those terms are meant to describe an engine being run on positive manifold pressure to raise the HP. And of course...nitrous does not create a positive (meaning above ambient) pressure in the intake manifold.
__________________
if it's cheap & reliable, it ain't fast, if it's fast & cheap, it ain't reliable, if it's fast & reliable, it ain't cheap
if it's cheap & reliable, it ain't fast, if it's fast & cheap, it ain't reliable, if it's fast & reliable, it ain't cheap
Flippin sweet
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I could tell you where it's at all day and I'm sure unless it's in front of your face you'll tell my I'm wrong. Just have this feeling. So just in case in hunch is incorrect it's on the back of the pacakage that the spark plugs come in. At least for the package the DSM plugs came in (yes I know they're all the same plugs it just matters how many you buy. So don't even think you can nail me on calling them vehicle specific).
So while we're debating over stupid shit.....
Some people call it a blow off valve, some call it a pop off valve. It's all the same thing but let's "debate" over what everyone calls it too! Begin:
So while we're debating over stupid shit.....
Some people call it a blow off valve, some call it a pop off valve. It's all the same thing but let's "debate" over what everyone calls it too! Begin:
